Opening Discussion

I understand there will shortly be a Consultation about a total ban on electric training collars for dogs and cats – also emotively known as “shock” collars. I am concerned that the result of this discussion are a foregone conclusion due to pressure from such organisations as The Kennel Club and the Dogs’ Trust who whip up public support by highlighting the potential abuse such devices can be used for and conveniently ignoring studies which have concluded that when used humanely and correctly there are no adverse effects and can in fact be beneficial.

The campaign to ban E-collars claims that they are completely and always unnecessary and that dog training can be achieved to a high standard using Reward Only methods. This is usually demonstrated by showing video clips of dancing dogs, agility dogs and super obedient dogs who can perform tricks to an excellent standard. This is not in question and does not need to be debated, however what it fails to acknowledge are the number of dangerous behaviours such as livestock worrying, car or bicycle chasing, and lurching across the road towards other dogs which need to be inhibited efficaciously before tragedy occurs. I have searched and searched for and failed to find a single piece of actual evidence that reward only behaviour has successfully changed the behaviour of a dog with an established chasing habit. Indeed if there were multiple evidence based examples of this they would feature heavily in the campaign against E-collars. They would also be all over dog training websites, and the trainers themselves, being heavily in demand, would be easy to find. This is simply not the case as my own experience bears witness.

Thirteen months ago I adopted a damaged and nervous large breed adult dog who had been passed from one shelter to another. I deliberately chose a dog who had been continually overlooked because as a home worker I have the time and inclination to put in the necessary effort. He responded extremely favourably to the received wisdom of Positive Only training methods except in regard to his enormous prey drive. I followed the advice given so glibly that if I only persisted in getting ever closer to livestock and rewarding him for not responding, in due course the behaviour would diminish. It did not change one iota.

To my eternal shame and regret, my failure has resulted in the death of two ewes, his own injury from being kicked by a horse, injury to me from being pulled over and financial loss in respect of compensation paid to a farmer. I was still committed to training this out of him using kind only methods but the search for professional help proved fruitless. One self-proclaimed expert in the field turned me down on learning he had already killed sheep, another failed to respond to my enquiry, and another said he would help if I

compensated him for any damage to his flock during the process. I politely declined. We struggled on for another four months of only ever walking on leash – not ideal for a large energetic dog, and also not really safe as he still went crazy if he got sight or sniff of sheep.

Eventually I found a trainer who was honest and open about the special circumstances in which he uses aversive conditioning to inhibit dangerous behaviours. He has a string of glowing client testimonials and video evidence of his methods and their results. He is committed to using only the highest quality products rather than the cheap nasty devices freely available on the internet, and he campaigns for their use solely under licence and with the appropriate professional input. In two short training sessions which involved receiving four static electronic pulses each lasting only a fraction of a second, my dog decided for himself that sheep were just not interesting any more.

We have never looked back, and I can say with my hand on heart that walks are now an absolute joy for us both. I still use a leash near livestock out of courtesy to the farming community, but I do not have to worry about what is around every corner or over every hedge, or concern ourselves with livestock making an unexpected appearance.

I urge you to hear the voices of people whose lives have been transformed by such input, and NOT to make criminals of those who have their dog’s best interest at heart and want more for them than a sterile overly controlled existence. I urge you not to criminalise those of us brave enough to take on other people’s thrown away animals and undo the damage that their neglect and/or well-meaning ignorance has created. I urge you to acknowledge the fact that it is misuse of the tool rather than the tool itself that is dangerous, and to make appropriate controls compulsory rather than enforce an outright ban. I urge you in the event of such a ban to advise your constituents on the realistic alternative methods they can take to alter such behaviour rather than expecting them to successfully manage an unpredictable environment for the duration of a dog’s lifetime.

I look forward to your reply and hope you can consider my request with an open mind

25 thoughts on “Opening Discussion”

  1. So understand all you say in same boat with dog that goes crazy for chase not just sheep and horses but bikes too.. Have followed reward based only for two years socialised well as a pup in any situation I could think of . then he hit adulthood and wham . went to many trainers for help and told to get tastier food stay far enough away from said situations. I asked said trainer then can you show me a football pitch and a half away later she thats ok but neither of us could see the distraction. That is not feasable in todays crowded society and more to the point it is abviousl. To date I have broken wrist black eye injured back badly bruised hip from being dragged along ground .The dog also injured in his attempts to get to prey. .instructors do not admit when their method does not work why is that? Its no shame to say it and try something else like e collar with proven success where all else has failed. Is it ego ? Not sure there is an eliment of fear of being ostracised by peer group I think as privately other views are expressed. My dog is a wonderful dog but for this problem and yes he can do tricks and we have great fun but only in house and garden as he is a danger outside and has indeed had us both in front of moving car to get to cyclist. So please dont deprive my dog of a life when I ask for help from a successful experienced dog man who will use an e collar if. necessary.as I know from my research he has done many times.

  2. I am contacting you with regards to the potential ban on the sale and use of Electric Collars currently available for use on dogs in the UK with the exception of Wales. I feel that ministers and indeed the public need to be clear on the value of these collars and not to be swayed by the image that is created by the Kennel Club, which itself should be investigated for insisting on breed standards that cause more suffering on a scale far greater than any use of these collars, and also by animal charities whose actions will only succeed in increasing demands for their services as people have to give up their pets or more and more healthy and happy animals being put to sleep.

    I own a beautiful Labrador called Arthur who came to me at 7 months old having being given away with the usual story of being too much trouble. He is a typical Labrador, very greedy and very placid, loves people and other dogs however I soon found out that as a working dog he has an inbred urge to hunt and he does it very well. My first experience of this was on a walk through a field where we unexpectedly came upon some sheep and before I could get him back on his lead he was off. On subsequent walks he would chase birds and rabbits, at one point going missing for an hour and another running straight into the road this made my decision to get professional help.

    I contacted a local dog training class who insisted if I came to them he could eliminate the problem using positive training methods e.g. food. I signed up to the 10 week course where Arthur behaved impeccably in an enclosed paddock with no distraction other than half a pound of cheddar as a reward. As soon as we returned to our walks his hunting instinct took over and no amount of steak, sausage, chicken and mature cheddar would get him back if he caught the scent of a hare or the whiff of a pheasant. This made be consider parting company with my pet however I decided to give him another chance and found another dog trainer and made an appointment to talk over my issues. He explained that the natural instinct of my dog is to hunt and that cannot be changed but if I am confident that I have total recall we can once again enjoy our walks. It became obvious that I would need an alternative to reward only and my trainer explained that the only guaranteed recall would be with the use of a remote (electric) collar. Initially I was reluctant considering It to be cruel but decided to give it a try. It took hours of training both of me and my dog as my trainer conditioned Arthur very gently and slowly to realise that on my whistle command he needs to return to my side otherwise he gets a small nip in the side of his neck. He doesn’t yelp or cry the only sign that he has felt anything is a slight shake of his head and of course his speedy return. I can hold the collar myself and feel no pain only a slight shock. This equipment has transformed our lives, I can take him anywhere with total confidence and have never had an issue since even though he wears his collar at all times it is rarely, if ever used, indeed my dog walker who reverted to never letting him off his lead now insists that he is the best behaved dog she has and a pleasure to walk.

    Arthur continues to chase pheasants which he will never catch, and hares of which he has less chance. He is a happy, confident dog with the waggiest tale and now has a fantastic life compared to the uncertain future he had before. I ask that you carefully consider the effect this ban could have on pet owners like myself, surely this is less cruel than dogs being shot, causing accidents, sheep being killed and rescue centres filling up with otherwise perfectly healthy dogs?

  3. We haven’t had problems with our dog worrying sheep etc, but I just wanted to tell his story. He’s always been a difficult dog, even from being a small puppy. He refused to walk on a lead and would pull the whole time. As he got bigger and older I was pulled over by him on several occasions, he also pulled my husband over resulting in a broken thumb. Dog would also bite us and would throw himself down on the floor. We tried letting him walk off his lead but he would bolt off refusing to come back. He would lunge after other dogs. We took him to two different training courses, to no avail. Walking him was an absolute nightmare and became a dread rather than a joy. We were recommended a highly trained, well thought of dedicated trainer quite by chance. He assessed us and the dog and asked us how we felt about using a remote electronic collar. Dog then went to him for two weeks residential training , he then returned him to us and gave instruction on the use of the collar. We now have a happy,healthy calm dog who is a joy to walk. He wears his collar when out for a walk but it is very rare that we use it.
    Said trainer does not sell his collars on the internet and they are of good quality with different settings that can be set to suit the dog.
    If we hadn’t used an ecollar our would not have the quality of life that he has now. Please don’t deprive other responsible dog owners the use of the collar. Used in the correct way they are invaluable.
    The Kennel club and Dogs Trust

  4. I have a dog who has lived in menu homes in America and Jordan before comming to Scotland to live with myself. She has extreme red zone aggression to other dogs (intent and commitment to kill) and frustrated redirection to handler when this is not fulfilled. In every prior home positive only methods were tried and failed to help her so the owner prior to me wanted to dump her in a shelter to be killed. I saught out a experienced professional who agreed to take her on a board and train following a 4hour assessment. He correctly conditioned her to the e collar from e collar technologies and then trained me on its correct use for her and my other dogs (who had issues of ther own witch good citizen dog scheme by the kennel club had failed on every count) and now I have a happy balanced pack that are all nice and calm and we live in harmony together. I am ferry active in my on-going behaviour modification daily and this wood not be possible without the proper correct use of e collars. I get almost daily compliments from the public on how well behaved my dogs are and that that are like completely different dogs to how that behaved before I learned calm leadership skills. My dogs behaviour is exemplary And this is due to the entire balanced way of life . Please do not criminalise us . I wood not be able to take my dog even outside the door if this tool was made illegal and she wood need to be confined to the house 24/7 and have to be forced to go to the toilet inside. This is intolerable for a dog and wood have long term psychological implications for her from witch ther wood be no real life answer. She wood not cope with shelter life and wood become ferry shut down and this wood lead to her untimely death. Banning this tool is sentencing menu menu dogs to death

    1. Respect to you and really hope you are able to continue without being criminalised. I do understand as my dog was confined to house or empty field. We have sheep all around here and bikes race . I had to do recce first to get from door to car in case of pheasants or cats. Or horse. Now the lambs are escaping and on the wander. So thank goodness I found Jamie who is with an e collar doing what 2 and a half years of reward only and multiple class/ trainers/4 day dog training break did not.

  5. Hi Doris, Heartbreaking to hear you have been confined to house and garden. It makes me so angry that people dare to judge us for choosing to take appropriate action rather than settling for a second rate existence. E-collar training was the best thing I ever did for my boy and I challenge absolutely anyone to find any deficiency in our bond or any sign that he has been damaged in any way. Best of luck to you!

    1. Thanks its a mark of my love and comitment to my dog that I want him to be free to enjoy life.But you are right I am judged by some but those that will listen and learn realise But its slow work. Two people have at least tried the collar and completely changed their minds.

  6. Its often useful to show vid samples of the behaviour of both group types of dogs, possibly as a vid submission to MP’s when writing or seeing them about parliament being mislead, anyway the first vid is of non-e-collar reinforced dogs, the second is of my late dobe, all dogs are in same ‘type’situation,

    Non e-collar training reinforced dogs
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YANB7yz6Ysw
    E-collar training reinforced dog
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9LuE0_wKLY
    .

  7. I am eternally grateful and always will be, that after much searching I found a trainer who loves dogs, and knows the value, in certain circumstances, that Ecollar training affords. My story is not dissimilar from the many here. I first tried the collar on for myself. It took 3 careful, but straightforward training sessions, and all our previous limitations vanished! My dog Pip, is a 3yr old rescue Terrier/Collie X with perhaps Whippet, Meerkat and Kangaroo. When out exploring the world she always wears her Ecollar, and is happy and shows absolutely non of the negative behaviours that many would have you believe. Fellow dog walkers I meet whilst out in the countryside comment on her boundless energy, speed, friendly nature, confidence and good behaviour! They mistake her Ecollar for a tracker, and once it’s purpose and workings are explained, 99% commend me, and agree that it clearly serves a very worthwhile purpose. Seeing IS believing!
    I have a campervan, and last summer, (3 months after training), we confidently explored the Lake and Peak District, and the Yorkshire Dales . This would not have been possible without ECollar training! She would have constantly been on a lead or long line as she used to chase sheep, squirrels, rabbits and seagulls. I could not risk her harming anything or getting herself killed. She is a phenomenal little camping buddy, and is never a problem at all. Next week we’re off to Wales, and hopefully Cornwall in the summer. Life is for living and we are doing just that!

  8. We have a pointer that we rehomed at nearly 3 years old. She had been tethered outside, just out of reach of chickens prior to us owning her. She hadn’t been let off lead or socialised. Her recall was selective at times, no matter what we tried, as she has a very strong hunt instinct. She managed to get into a chicken pen to the side of a field she was off lead on and killed 4 chickens, fortunately I knew the person who owned them.
    No amount of obedience classes,long line training, tasty treats( and the list goes on…!) would prevent her from those ‘deaf’ moments when she got a scent. Her recall continued on this 95% basis for a number of years. I then had an incident where she ran across two fields to chase sheep(none were harmed) and I knew something had to change, the farmer would have been within his rights to shoot her.

    I had started doing agility with my other dog and the trainer mentioned the dogtra E-collar. We never looked back, 100% recall in any situation. We had numerous sessions to teach her how to switch the collar off, we increased distractions gradually and worked up to going in the chicken pen. We had her in the chicken pen and a straight recall through the chickens. I never thought i’d see the day! And wished I had used the collar years earlier. I felt so much more relaxed on walks,knowing that I could guarantee her recall. It is the safest option for our dog,livestock and poultry and possibly road users, had she ever got onto a main road when her hunt instinct took hold.

    I don’t think that the E-collars are to blame for being cruel, it’s down to the operator. A choke chain, long line, most correction aids can be deemed cruel if used incorrectly. Some of the common misconceptions I’ve heard about the E-collars:

    They are an easy, quick fix
    – No, numerous sessions with a dog trainer to make sure that the dog knows how to switch the collar off (by coming back)Not simply a shock and the dog doesn’t know why.

    It hurts them
    -Not one squeal or sign of discomfort, even when turning the collar up for training around chickens. Your aim using the collar, after initial use is to just put the collar on the dog and they will associate with compliant behaviour. However, it also means you have a back up if needed.
    The level I use 25(out of a possible 100 on the dial) if I ever have to use, feels like a toning belt or tens machine style sensation, just a gentle reminder at a distance to return back to me instantly.

    It’s cruel
    It’s a training aid and should be used as such. Used incorrectly any device can be harmful

    It’s the easy option to training ‘the cheats way’ to obedience training
    – It’s not/should not be used as an alternative to obedience training. It should be used alongside training and to compliment it. It can be used to enforce your command at a distance.

    I understand that all dogs aren’t the same and it’s great if these types of training aids are not warranted. However a ban on their usage may cause some rescue dogs or dogs with issues to be sentenced to a life on lead, which in turn may further worsen or create behavioural problems.
    I am unsure why, at a time when dog control orders have become stricter in this country and sheep attacks by dogs are rising,that the training aid to control this behaviour is facing a ban?
    In my opinion the E-collar should be about improving and enhancing your dogs quality of life and the quality of the time you spend with your dog. It should also be of paramount importance to keep you, your dog and others safe.

  9. That is really well put The live stock issue is so important because as you say the the farmer is in his rights to shoot the dog. I understand the sheep mauling by dogs problem has risen greatly since the ban on e collar in Wales

  10. I would like to very warmly thank Jamie Penrith for this milestone of an initiative; below is the most of one of my shorter letters of the approximately dozen I recently sent out about the issue, this one to my local MP and the only one I wrote as a dog owner only as I was unsure if being a trainer would lessen my credibility as one with possible “vested interest”.
    Nothing new to most readers here, I believe. I started by expressing worry over the proposal of a UK-wide ban of electronic collars, knowing the disastrous results of such blanket ban in Wales (where, according to the police, attacks on sheep now “become an everyday occurrence”), and personal experiences of mine and many others. For just one example, within less than a year from adopting a very strong and boisterous, physically and mentally fully developed, yet untrained adult American bulldog (not a breed known as the easiest to train) cross, his obedience become reliable enough so that he could come with me pretty much everywhere and regularly be allowed off-lead. This, besides meeting his need – as listed in the Animal Welfare Act – of exhibiting normal behavioural patterns, had an immensely beneficial effect on his overall mental and physical well-being, a change which could not have been achieved without the help of a top-quality electronic training collar. How can I be so sure? Because I trained him only with rewards for several months until his behaviour no longer improved as a result, at which point he performed beautifully except when he was more interested in something than in any of my rewards – a behaviour as normal and understandable as rarely it is even acknowledged, much less addressed by force-free trainers. In other words, no aversives were involved until we made the most out of positive reinforcement-training, and the collar was used in conjunction with, and not, as ban lobbyists would suggest is generally the case, in place of the reward-based training which was never discontinued.
    The e-collar did indeed clear up reliability issues without any adverse effects, as expected. I chose it because, contrary to popular beliefs, not only it is more effective, but is also safer and more humane (less stressful) than other aversive training tools (many of which are widely available in pet shops and endorsed by supposedly aversive-free trainers), for the following main reasons.

    1. The level of correction that gets a response without causing undue stress for being overwhelming can be set with the greatest precision, except for poor quality, cheap collars which should not be available to the public. Stating that the collars are “painful devices” is a misleadingly gross generalisation and oversimplification for the purpose of fear-mongering – video evidence can be seen at https://youtu.be/TD4sjDbFs0E (can also be accessed by typing “E-Collar!! Does it hurt?” in YouTube’s search box).

    2. It can be used to communicate the start and end of the unwanted behaviour with the most exquisite timing – claims like “A dog can’t understand when or why it’s being shocked” is another notion of those campaigning for the ban that could not be further from the truth.
    As evidenced in a study: “the electronic training collar had learning effect on the majority of the dogs, 39 out of 42, 92.9%).”

    3. Its lack of mechanical impact on the body minimises the likelihood of the correction getting associated with the handler instead of the unwanted behavior, contrary to the common myth that use of the collars is prone to create wrong associations. “(…) since the dog does not link the handler with receiving the electrical shock, it considers its handler as a safety point near which it can protect itself from the aversive situation.”, as explained in the same study.
    The above three points minimise stress during training; as another study concluded, “Animals, which were able to clearly associate the electric stimulus with their action, i.e. touching the prey, and consequently were able to predict and control the stressor, did not show considerable or persistent stress indicators”.
    In addition, the collar outperforms other training tools in the aspect of physical safety as well, and not just because its use itself is harmless (claiming otherwise co

    4. It is invaluably helpful with dogs much stronger than their handlers and in situations where mechanical control would be injurious to dog, handler or both, such as when they are already recovering from an injury.

    5. It works not only off-lead, but from a much greater distance than any long lines, without any of the risks of injury associated with them.
    There is no other dog training tool on the market capable of all of the above, which is why trainers kept in business more by the public appeal of their force-free principles than their results, together with the animal welfare organisations they are affiliated with, want to see them banned.
    Now every time I see my dog having the time of his life running free, exploring his environment and socialising, I  find myself wishing I could tell him that he better makes the most of it, as, after all the happy years, now every occasion could be the last.
    I can’t even begin to tell you how much the possible return of his long-gone days of limited physical and mental exercise – in the form of leash confinement – and, eventually, reliability, saddens and worries me. All I can do is to hope that the legislative decision, as it should be in democracy, will be based on the evaluation of facts and evidence, not on bandwagon-effect and financially motivated, emotively manipulative, sensationalist propaganda. I can only hope for a result that, instead of a blanket ban that would only criminalise responsible dog ownership and put lives at risk, will be regulations to put poorly made, cheap products the name “shock” collar would still be appropriate for, out of public availability – no-one spends >£250 on a top-quality ecollar with intent of abuse when a boot would do!
    Any help saving the freedom and safety of thousands of dogs and the peace of mind of their owners is greatly appreciated.

  11. Laiura Hopkins

    As a dog trainer and dog owner,I recently had to visit my new Vets in my area. Sadly my older Collie had to be put to Sleep. My young Collie with huge prey/chase drive ,wearing her remote collar had to have a fine needle aspirate on a tiny lump. As eye contact causes her to get excited ,I have had notes put on her records for the Vets to totally ignore her. During the aspirate I asked the Vet his opinion on remote/e collars and explained how my collie use to lunge at every passing car on lead and chase anything that moved including prams,joggers etc. He said “You did the right thing to keep your dog safe”. Another Vet in the same practice also agreed that e collars should not be completely banned. My response was that the cheap ones on Ebay & Amazon need banning as they do cause pain.. I must stipulate here that I conditioned my collie gently over several days so she understood the collar and that by compliance could control the e collar herself. I do not use it for training. I use it to keep her safe. to stop her getting killed by pulling me over to chase a car. Her car issue is fear based and she thinks by chasing them that she is making them go away.
    I think a large part of the problem is that those against e collars believe they ARE used in training by all e collar owners. This isn’t always the case. Yes I used it on single digits(below 5) to get a solid recall and always used the beep tone prior to any stimulation. Now she walks beautifully at heel down the road with only a little anxiety. Have I used it to train tricks or heelwork ,distance control etc?…NO. Only ever to keep her safe and to avoid her causing a car accident had she ever broken lose and ran it the road. I think the question asked should be. If your dog was running towards a cliff edge how many dog owners would rather use an e collar on a low level or allow the dog to go over the cliff to die a painful death. If any dog owner says they would rather let their dog die then clearly they have faulty thinking.
    I appreciate some trainers use higher levels ,which is their choice and by no means do all dogs need an e collar. However,better an e collar then a dead dog or a dog that chases everything.I do think anyone that uses e collars should be licensed and pay annually after instruction from a professional . Sadly their are e collar trainers that use e collars at very high levels leading to them having such bad press, which I have never needed to do. Even if my Collie starts after a squirrel a quick “nick” is all it takes to bring her back immediately. She was the pup from hell but through correct training and e collar conditioning (after 9 months old) she is a lovely dog though not for a beginner. I will say here that I tried every thing else before resorting to e collar conditioning. From toys to food etc. I am a reward based trainer but strongly believe in consequences for non compliance once a command is clearly understood by the dog.
    My point here is if Vets don’t think e collars should be banned then why on this planet are the uneducated so against them. Surely if e collars were harmful then these Vets would be against their use. The Vets do agree however that they need to be used correctly. The extremists against the use of e collars clearly don’t believe that a dog should be allowed to run off lead and respond rapidly when called.I still am yet to see any prey drive cured with purely positive training. I don’ t agree with just strapping one on and zapping any dog. The conditioning phase is so very important.
    It is all about education and support given freely by those Trainers with the knowledge. It is not the time to put making money first. We need all tools available to keep dogs safe and from being given up and the shelters bursting at the seams. So many bad behaviours are easily sorted out with correct e collar use or in most cases just training he dog. The majority of owners never even bother to train their dog at all..
    Lets also remember not all e collars are made equal. Cheap ones are nasty . Pay the money for a high quality one.

    1. How often do we hear calls for Laws? Once a Law is passed, it then needs enforcement by punishment. How is anyone going to be caught “using” and eCollar? Even if switched on you may not have used it…..
      It has taken years for experienced people who have used eCollars for training to come out of the shadows. The law will make eCollars disappear from sight again. But not stop anyone using them if they wish to.
      Lets EDUCATE everyone, let it be known about standards of manufacture, princples of use, occassions when it could be beneficial. Lets know where positive re-inforcement eCollar experienced trainers are. Lets moniter their reputation, client waiting lists, dog results……the dog owning population are not stupid. Lets avoid any payments or fines. Places with many dog bins, and even drinking water, are always cleaner than one with no facilities……let’s lead with good examples rather than keep bashing owners, already challenged to find off lead exercise areas away from livestock.

  12. Hi there,
    I fully expect to be shot down in flames, but I can’t wait for all e-collars to be banned from general sale.
    I fully and completely agree that they can, in certain circumstances, be effective, potentially the only effective option short of euthanasia.
    BUT they are not humane and anyone who thinks they are is delusional.
    Currently these collars can be bought by anyone and the majority of those who buy them are using them as a shortcut to cure what should be simple issues that they are too lazy to put the work into.
    They MUST only be available to be used under specialist, licensed professional advice. Which should exclude many who set themselves up as dog trainers, given that the label seems to be becoming a license to print money.

    1. Hello Hazel
      I have just read your comment.

      Currently these collars can be bought by anyone and the majority of those who buy them are using them as a shortcut to cure what should be simple issues that they are too lazy to put the work into.

      Are you by any chance an associate of Mark the vet who was on the wright stuff who said basically the same thing to Jamie Penrith.

      You have obviously never had a dog with issues?
      you are entitled to your opinion of course but with comments like that keep them to yourself please.

      John

    2. Hazel,
      I mostly agree with you, no flame shooting here. The cheap rip-off collars need to be banned, somehow prevented from being available anywhere! I along with other ordinary dog lovers/e-collar users want nothing more than for this whole arena to be cleaned up and tightened up! I would happily pay for a license, I would only ever use a very experienced welfare minded trainer. I only use the collar for recall, often life saving! Although I have learned about other situations or behaviours where correct application can be life changing too. An E-collar is not inhumane, though the person holding the remote may be!
      I am not a trainer, just an unapologetic animal lover! When I started to look into them I asked myself how dogs teach dogs? How do they establish boundaries and rules? I really do think the world of dog ownership has got totally lost in the way we relate to dogs, or expect them to relate to us.
      I imagine you know the humane way in which E-collar training is supposed to happen. I know there are sickos out there, and they deserve the highest degree of consequence for any act of cruelty possible, but I really do believe the vast majority of us that have (after a lot of soul and (re-)searching,) gone about getting the help we needed to liberate our beloved pets from a life of unpleasant restriction and confinement in the most welfare and diligent manner possible. We are not lazy, in fact far from it! Thanks, Ginny

    3. Have you ever had anything to do with an E-collar? Have you put one on your arm to see what it feels like? Have you ever had a dog who has a high chase drive? Unless you can answer ‘yes’ to these questions, then you are completely unqualified to comment.
      If someone is going to be cruel to their dog, they don’t need an E-collar to do that. Banning e-collars simply condemns much loved dogs to live their lives on a lead.

    4. It is only relatively recently with the ability to use the Internet that it has been possible to access enough information about outdoor trainning. With gun dogs you used to need to know a farmer or someone who shoots. With the Internet came easy access to buy any dog without being qualified in any way.
      Now I own 7 challenging dogs, half are rescues, I find my distant control lacking, dispite much positive training. I have reviewed eCollars with great caution and am now happy using them as for low key training but do not feel experienced enough to ensure my dogs are safe around livestock. I would welcome all owners to attend an assessment with each of their dogs to introduce and train with an eCollar, thereby ensuring that every dog individually has been understood.

    5. You have effectively called me delusional, but sounds like you are delusional Hazel. I have used an e-collar. I know what it can do. I know it is humane.

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